S1E3: DR. DESIREE

S1E3: DR. DESIREE

[00:00:00] Dr. Desiree: In my doctoral program, there's, there's one lesson that, that the director insisted we walk away from. She was always saying, you all need to understand the key motivator to human behavior is the need to belong to a group. And so that group starts off with our family, our primary caregivers.

[00:00:17] Cee The Sex Lady: Mm-hmm.

[00:00:17] Dr. Desiree: And so based on that primary caregiver experience, if you learn through your life experiences. Like, I can't trust you. It shows up as an adult, like, well, I can do it on my own. I'm independent.

[00:00:31] Cee The Sex Lady: Mm-hmm.

[00:00:32] Dr. Desiree: I, I can't risk that you'll meet my needs, so I just have to do it.

[00:00:37] Cee The Sex Lady: Mm-hmm.

[00:00:37] Dr. Desiree: But there's still a desire for someone else to show up. The desire is there, but the life experiences have contrasted it.

[00:00:44] If someone learned that I can't be sexual, I can't be in my body because I'm a bad person, whatever, then perhaps we learn to say, okay, how can I tend to your needs? How can I make you happy so that the message is that I'm a good person. I'm not bad, I'm not shameful. I, I see that a lot in, it's kind of obvious, I would say in female identified people, women who were conditioned with these female gender roles.

[00:01:10] You, that's kind of just like in. In inferred. Um, but I also see a lot with my male identified patients who are conditioned with these male gender roles.

[00:01:21] Cee The Sex Lady: Mm-hmm.

[00:01:21] Dr. Desiree: But have some sort of disconnect with sex.

[00:02:06] Cee The Sex Lady: Hi, and welcome to From the Heart Side Out a show where we dive deep into the real conversations about relationships, intimacy, and mental health. I'm see the sex lady, your guide, through these rich and sometimes challenging waters. Whether you're here to nurture your personal growth or seeking professional insight, this space is for you.

[00:02:27] If you enjoy today's episode, be sure to subscribe and share with a friend. Head to the show notes for any resources mentioned and for more information about connecting with me or our guest, have a question you'd like answered on the show or just want to say hi. Email me at podcast at see the sex lady.com.

[00:02:46] I'd love to hear from you. Let's get started.

[00:02:50] Of course we have to start our episode with some sex ed you wish you had, and today we're diving into something that affects so many of us. That's how religious and cultural teachings shape our view about sex, intimacy, and relationships. You know, many of us were taught specific things about who we're supposed to be and how we're we're supposed to act in relationships, especially when it comes to sex.

[00:03:12] Sometimes these messages come from religion, cultural norms, family norms. Even well-meaning family members, they can also leave us feeling confused, ashamed, or disconnected from our own desires. Here's the thing, those messages, while they may have served a purpose in a certain context, aren't the whole story.

[00:03:34] We get to choose what works for us. Now you get to choose what works for you. Now you can reframe these ideas and create new narratives that honor your desires, your boundaries, and your wellbeing. This is all about peeling back the layer of should about what society says we should do, what religion says we should be, and instead asking yourself, what do I want?

[00:03:59] What feels right for me? So the sex ed you wish you had is this. You get to define your own relationship to your body, your sexuality, and your partnerships. You can honor your beliefs while also exploring what truly aligns with who you are today. That's it for this segment of sex Ed you wish you had. Remember, you are allowed to write your own story.

[00:04:24] Let's dive into our episode. I am an incredibly excited to introduce our guest, our very first guest on From the Heart Side out Dr. Desiree N Robinson. Dr. Desiree is a speaker, clinical consultant and psychotherapist specializing in sex, intimacy and trauma.

[00:04:45] She approaches her work from an integrative lens that encourages liberation integration. And deeper learning through self-awareness. Her work allows her to speak internationally, support up and coming clinicians, and create curriculums, centering on sexuality, religion, spirituality, and wellness from a non pathologizing perspective.

[00:05:06] Everyone, please welcome Dr. Desiree.

[00:05:10] Yay. Thank you. Thank you. Yes.

[00:05:13] Thank you for, for being here, for being our very first guest. It is such an honor to, to speak with someone who is doing amazing work, amazing work in the fields of sex therapy and just therapy in general. So very excited to have you.

[00:05:29] Dr. Desiree: My pleasure to be here really and truly.

[00:05:32] Cee The Sex Lady: Yes. And so I know from your bio, we know a little bit about what you do and, and what your specialties are, but can you share a little bit more about yourself, how you arrived at this really innovative, uh, approach to therapy and approach to sex therapy that you have, you know, that is integrative, that is, you know, focused on liberation and those sorts of things.

[00:05:52] Can you share a little bit about your journey to this point?

[00:05:55] Dr. Desiree: Absolutely. So I, I will say I've always known I wanted to be a sex therapist from a very, very young age. Because anytime something around sex or sexual was mentioned, everyone got really quiet. Right. If a, if a very explicit song came on the radio, the channel was instantly turned.

[00:06:15] And so of course, you know, on one hand appropriate parenting and moderation as an adult.

[00:06:20] Cee The Sex Lady: Mm-hmm.

[00:06:21] Dr. Desiree: At the same time, nobody was ever talking about sex. And so that always became my curiosity. Finding out almost like sexual trivia, learning, trying to understand and piece things together.

[00:06:33] And having an interest in wanting to be a therapist, it just seemed like the trajectory I knew I wanted to, I wanted to be the one who is actually talking and educating about sexuality. Right. Yeah. Uh, I've had so many beautiful experiences as a therapist being able to meet people in different environments from New Mexico, which is a very different cultural dynamic.

[00:06:57] Not only the demographics, but sometimes the approach to therapy. Actually, I would say that's probably where it started for me, when you start to learn about some of the practices that indigenous folks use, how to treat addictions, mental health, wellness, learning about spirituality, and how that also intersects with mental health and wellness.

[00:07:17] Cee The Sex Lady: Mm-hmm.

[00:07:18] Dr. Desiree: Then I come back home to the East Coast and it's all very cognitive, very structured. Uhhuh, Uhhuh. I just, I, I just over, let me see, over, I guess over an 11 year career, I've just grown to start to seek. Liberation, understanding how sometimes systems, especially systems of oppression, directly impact mental health and wellness.

[00:07:40] And so it's my privilege and my desire to really just invite people to start to find themselves as opposed to who they're told they ought to be, who they're told they should be. And through better integration and self-awareness, we also find enhanced sexuality and connection.

[00:07:58] Cee The Sex Lady: Yeah. And so it's, it's really a holistic focus.

[00:08:02] It's about the whole person and their personal journey, their exploration and their sexuality being a part of that. Not the entire picture, but a very important part of that picture. It sounds like

[00:08:14] Dr. Desiree: I. 1000%. And I tell people upfront, I tell my supervisees, people who are starting their clinical journey, we require oversight cause you don't wanna just give someone a master's and it's like, go, go do therapy. Right? So part of a therapist training is that you spend a few years under the supervision of someone who's more senior in the field. So now I get to hold that role with pride. And so the invitation is that sometimes sex is the presenting factor.

[00:08:41] Sometimes it is the situation that we work with, and sometimes it is the manifestation of other dynamics that's showing up in one of the most vulnerable ways people connect.

[00:08:52] Cee The Sex Lady: Yeah. And so you work with, in your clinical work, 'cause I know not all the work that you do is clinical, but our conversation will focus mostly on the clinical.

[00:09:01] You work with individuals as well as couples. And how do you, what are, what would you say are some of the foundational theories or modalities or just sources of information, I guess you could say that inform your work with individuals and with couples?

[00:09:18] Dr. Desiree: I would say my trauma work has really invited me to become one with attachment, attachment theory.

[00:09:26] And so from a, the, um, theoretical pedagogy that looks like EFT. Mm-hmm. It looks like EMDR. It looks like some IFS training ,polyvagal. Theory. I'm also trained in the developmental model, which deals with high conflict couples and, and also discernment counseling, which is to kind of figure out if people want to stay together or if they wanna go one person, they call it leaning in.

[00:09:51] Leaning out,

[00:09:51] Cee The Sex Lady: right.

[00:09:52] Dr. Desiree: And really just kind of seeing, first off. If we have the hope to continue couples therapy, which would be separate from that process. Mm-hmm. Or if we're just defining that this is over, which is also important, how do we end relationships with some sort of integrity and clarity so that there's a wide range of things that I pull from.

[00:10:13] And because it's attachment, liberation, nervous system, or polyvagal focused in a lot of ways, they all say the same thing. They just do it differently.

[00:10:24] Cee The Sex Lady: Yeah. Yeah. And, and I wanna talk a little bit more about the attachment piece. So our, our last episode was all about kind of the basics of attachment theory.

[00:10:32] And so if you have not listened to that episode, uh, you may wanna pause this and go listen to that one. It gives you a good foundational overview of, of some of the, the terminology and things like that that we'll be using. How do you introduce. Attachment theory or attachment work, you know, with your clients, whether individually or or in couples, how do you typically make that introduction to folks who may not be familiar with it, but are experiencing some things that, you know, doing some of that exploration could be really helpful for?

[00:11:02] Dr. Desiree: I introduce it quite upfront just to frame the understanding of what's happening, right? So in in EFT, emotion-focused therapy, a type of couples therapy, we would call it the dynamic and understanding how somebody who is likely avoidant. Someone who is likely anxious, how they kind of do this dance of trying to find connection.

[00:11:26] They want to find integration so badly. Yeah. The attachment style usually shows up in the protective mechanisms. Mm-hmm. But they're survival skills.

[00:11:36] Cee The Sex Lady: Yeah.

[00:11:36] Dr. Desiree: Right. And what I like to say to my individuals and couples is that survival skills, they are inherently opposite of connection skills. Ooh, you, you see, like we, we can't do it.

[00:11:48] And so once we start to frame for couples just holding that there for them, that your person is not bad or wrong, there's something in this dynamic that needs to be understood. And then cleared out. And then redone.

[00:12:00] Cee The Sex Lady: Yes,

[00:12:00] Dr. Desiree: yes. We, we have to shift it. And then for individuals as well, just being able to understand how we relate to the world, how we treat ourselves as well, has to do with the level of secure attachment to others, but also.

[00:12:14] To ourself that we have to think of,

[00:12:16] Cee The Sex Lady: right? Yeah. So it's this, it's inner work. It's it's relational between you and someone else, but it's, it's, there's a piece of what is this like just within yourself as well, and that that contrast between the, the survival mechanisms and the, the connection mechanisms, that just really resonates with me.

[00:12:36] Can you say a little more about that or give some examples of how those things don't always. Work together or how they, how they con conflict? Sometimes

[00:12:45] Dr. Desiree: 1000%. I, I will say in my doctoral program, there's, there's one lesson that, that the director insisted. We walk away from Dr. Carol Clark. I'll name her.

[00:12:55] And so she was always saying, you all need to understand the key motivator to human behavior is the need to belong to a group. Yes. Okay. And so that group starts off with our family, our primary caregivers. Mm-hmm. Which is why a lot of adults took a long time to come around to attachment. Uh, a lot of adult therapists.

[00:13:15] Yeah. And so based on that primary caregiver experience, if you. Learn through your life experiences. Like, I can't trust you. It shows up as an adult, like, well, I can do it on my own. I'm independent. Mm-hmm. I, I can't risk that you'll meet my needs, so I just have to do it. Mm-hmm. But there's still a desire for someone else to show up.

[00:13:37] The, the desire is there, but the life experiences have contrasted it. If someone learned that I can't be sexual, I can't be in my body because I'm a bad person, whatever, then perhaps we learn to say, okay, how can I tend to your needs? How can I make you happy so that the message is that I'm a good person, I'm not bad, I'm not shameful, whatever.

[00:14:00] I hate to say whatever, but et cetera. Right? Let's say. Right. And, and I, I see that a lot in, it's kind of obvious, I would say, in female identified people, women who were conditioned with these female gender roles. That's kind of just like in, in inferred. Um, but I also see it a lot with my male identified patients who are conditioned with these male gender roles.

[00:14:24] Cee The Sex Lady: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:24] Dr. Desiree: But have some sort of disconnect with sex. And it's kind of like, I just wanna please my partner, if I can please my partner. It means something's not wrong or broken with me.

[00:14:33] Cee The Sex Lady: Yes, I see a lot of that as well. The, the performance anxiety of this is what I've been taught makes me a man, or this is how I prove my manhood or my masculinity and what happens when everything that I thought would work, quote unquote, in pleasing my partner doesn't seem to have that effect.

[00:14:52] What does that say about me? What does that say about our relationship? Uh, I actually was gonna ask how you. See kind of attachment patterns or attachment behaviors playing out in the sex lives of your clients? What are some of the things they mentioned that you're able to recognize, oh, we're, we're having the same attachment based kind of conversations, whether it's emotional intimacy or sexual intimacy.

[00:15:14] What are, what are the ways you see that play out in, in sexual, in a sexual context?

[00:15:20] Dr. Desiree: Frankly, I think it's because of the ear that I've cultivated when I start to just hear patterns and, and people are so predictable, number one. But also we have the same basic needs to belong to a group. And so when I hear some of the behaviors, I'm also hearing the longing, the desire for connection that people might not be saying because their frustration is dominant.

[00:15:45] So in the story that you have about your partner or yourself, I'm kind of hearing how that attachment dynamic showed up.

[00:15:53] Cee The Sex Lady: Mm-hmm. And,

[00:15:53] Dr. Desiree: and I wanna question it more 'cause I hear the theme, but not everyone is the same. So that's where the clinical process piece comes in. Yeah. You know, so everyone's going to come in if it's a couple, we have problems with communication.

[00:16:06] Uhhuh. Yes. That's where that's where we start. Communication is like. 98% of what people say, and so communication around sex might mean I don't get it enough. Okay, so you don't get it enough. Let's talk about what are some of the obstacles? Let's talk about how we initiate sex. What is the meaning and value of sex for you?

[00:16:26] Does sex mean this is how I connect with you?

[00:16:29] Cee The Sex Lady: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:30] Dr. Desiree: For someone else, do I find connection with you after sex? And so therefore I might not be as romantic or as, as generous per se, as you're wanting.

[00:16:41] Cee The Sex Lady: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:41] Dr. Desiree: And so now we have a bifurcation. I. Hmm. We wanna get to a similar goal, but the means in which we get there are divergent for people who might be sexually anxious or sexual pursuers, and people who are more avoidant or they use avoidance, so they show up as sexual withdrawals.

[00:16:58] Cee The Sex Lady: Yeah. Can you say a little bit more about that dynamic of pursue and withdraws? I know it's a, it's very common language. For folks who are using emotionally focused therapy, as you mentioned, but for folks who are a little less familiar with what that process looks like or, or what those term, what those terms mean, can you explain a little bit more about that di those, those dynamics?

[00:17:19] I will definitely try to break it down by any style. Okay.

[00:17:23] Dr. Desiree: So let's see. So in, in the attachment quadrant, I'll say, right, we have secure attachment and then we have a very common dynamic. Is people who are anxiously attached and people who are avoided. And the language does change when you talk about children versus adults with attachment, but they're, they're the same, right?

[00:17:44] Mm-hmm. So typically people who are pursuers or anxious,

[00:17:49] Cee The Sex Lady: mm-hmm.

[00:17:50] Dr. Desiree: They really cannot tolerate their person or other people not being okay.

[00:17:57] Cee The Sex Lady: Mm-hmm. Right.

[00:17:57] Dr. Desiree: It's almost like if you're not okay, I'm not okay, but not in an altruistic way. Like, I have to make you happy. If you're, if you're pleased, if you're okay, then that means I'm good.

[00:18:08] I haven't done something bad or wrong. And so pursuers are the ones who, who, like, if there's an argument, we, we gotta figure this out now. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. The tolerance for the ambiguity or uncertainty is threatening. Yeah. Okay. Now on the other side of that, and it's, it's amazing how people seem to pair are people who might be avoidant or withdraw.

[00:18:31] And what's typically common with people who withdraw is they have a fear of abandonment, and our anxious pursuers have a fear of rejection. Mm. Mm-hmm. So I, I need to do everything so you're not rejecting me. Conversely, the fear of abandonment is kind of like, I really can't even tolerate this, so I'm going to shut down, or I might need longer to sit with my emotions.

[00:18:53] And in that time, I really have difficulty engaging.

[00:18:56] Cee The Sex Lady: Yeah. Yeah. And so essentially they kind of end up, uh, triggering each other because the more the pursuer is pursuing, the more the withdrawer is withdrawing, and the more they withdraw, the more the other pursues. And so it's this, like you said, everyone's trying to get their needs met, but we're going about it in ways that essentially can be counterproductive.

[00:19:19] But of course, it doesn't feel that way when you're just focused on your survival and meeting those, those ultimate needs.

[00:19:25] Dr. Desiree: Ding, ding, ding that. That's perfect, right? And it shows that dynamic. And when we can name it as the dynamic, we can also take away the story. My partner's a jerk, they don't care about me, da, da, da.

[00:19:37] And it's like, no, their survival skills are kicking in and they're not available to even figure themselves out in that moment. Much less meet your needs. And as a trauma therapist, I am always wanting them to understand their own capacity for self-regulation.

[00:19:55] Cee The Sex Lady: Yeah. How do you do that? How do you support that process?

[00:20:00] You know, especially if you're working with a couple, because you're, you're, you're having to hold the individual kind of needs in mind and how that's I impacting the relationship needs and you know, how those things are impacting each other. How do you support or help couples or clients with identifying those needs, those mechanisms that they're using, that capacity for self-regulation?

[00:20:22] What might that process look like? It definitely

[00:20:26] Dr. Desiree: is part of affirming what's showing up in front of me. So really just naming not only the dynamic, but also the yearning that's underneath it and, and really laying out that dynamic is the most important part. So I do my best to. Frame it in session to get the questions that I would like answered about what would you need from your partner?

[00:20:48] What are your own obstacles to being available to meet these needs? Communication skills, depending on who I'm talking to, is where I usually start. Because if we can't communicate well, then we're just going to keep reenacting the frustration and the trauma of I'm speaking to you and you're not receiving me.

[00:21:08] I'm being vulnerable, and you're leaving me out in the dust all over again. Yeah. Yeah, so communication. Once I frame, I like to start with communication skills so that we can get deeper into really understanding the vulnerabilities. Sometimes the trauma or the really tender spots that show up in our survival skills.

[00:21:32] And then we conceptualize what are the new ways that we need to deal with this. Sometimes it means you're gonna have to be patient, you're gonna have to tolerate that your partner is processing because they're not ignoring you. They're processing. Right. So once we can start to understand the workings in a different way, I then invite my people to actually practice the skills.

[00:21:52] And, and what, I just know the people who are about it, they're about it. Mm-hmm. And if you're not doing it, I get it. It's survival connection. But you gotta have a new story or else your, your person's not going to trust you.

[00:22:06] Cee The Sex Lady: Yeah. Yeah. And it's that doing that work is really important, that practice, because learning the things is that's one half of the battle, but the information is only as good as what you do with it or what you know how to do with it.

[00:22:19] And I know you mentioned communication skills, depending on, you know, which partner you're talking to or what their kind of default attachment patterns might be. What are some of the differences in the communication skills that someone who is more anxiously attached? May, may want to work on versus someone who tends to be more avoidant.

[00:22:39] Ooh.

[00:22:41] Dr. Desiree: Honestly, it, it really depends per person. In my book, it's more so I. The urgency that I see anxiously attached. Folks want to resolve things very quickly. They need answers. They need to know to do that. Self-soothing. Yeah. And so some of the invitation is slow down to not request that people just do things like, I need to see your phone, or I need for you to da, da, da.

[00:23:08] It's like, well, why don't we communicate the need, the desire, and allow the other person to fulfill it in the way that makes sense for them. Ooh. Yeah, they, they're entitled to their process because even that process is reparative for your partner.

[00:23:23] Cee The Sex Lady: Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. They get some insight into what is the ultimate need, because I need to see, your phone doesn't really communicate what the ultimate need is.

[00:23:32] It's, I'm feeling insecure, I'm feeling nervous. I need some reassurance that I can trust you and that you're. Faithful to me or that you're honoring whatever agreements we've made. And that is a completely different conversation from, I need to see your phone. I need to see everyone you're texting and look through all of your social media.

[00:23:52] 'cause that's gonna send up. Red flags and defensiveness for a lot of pe, a lot of people,

[00:23:57] Dr. Desiree: 1000%, and especially for infidelity, recovery for a lot of people, they do encourage a lot of like tracking and questioning and questions. Sure. But I'm also inviting people to frame that I, I don't want my. I don't want the the offended partner in a space where their anxiety is consistently high with checking, tracking, et cetera.

[00:24:23] If your partner's a cheater, they're gonna cheat again, and if you go looking, you're going to find, quite frankly, so there's some repair work that has nothing to do with. I'm punishing you. Mm-hmm. Compared to we need to atone and through atonement coming to the sense of attunement, which is also a big attachment theory, attunement.

[00:24:42] Right. Like, you, you actually see me, you're connected to me, it's, it's what eye to eye contact does. Mm-hmm. You're not on your phone. I hate that people are, I'm having a conversation around to dinner and you're scrolling, like, no, see me. Yeah. Into me. So I think getting back to that energy is paramount compared to let me do these things to make sure you're still into me.

[00:25:05] That doesn't

[00:25:06] Cee The Sex Lady: anything. Yeah. Yeah. Again, speaking to what is the ultimate need and how can we meet that in a way that furthers the relationship or, or helps the relationship as opposed to ways that are more damaging. Like it goes back to what you said about what we do for survival. That being counterproductive for what we, the connection that we ultimately want.

[00:25:29] Dr. Desiree: Yeah. And, and to answer the, the other part of your question or, or the other part of what we're talking about for people who are avoiding you cannot drag your feet. I, I, I get it. That that's the mechanism. We're uncertain. We don't want a lot of drama. And a lot of times these are the people who will. Have a disagreement, come back and it's business as usual.

[00:25:49] Usually both folks, uh, but they don't wanna rock the boat. They don't wanna upset anything, and it's like, totally get it. And you also do a deep dive about your need, your yearning, and what are some of the obstacles that keep us from showing up? Maybe they think things are going very well, and so there's no need to check in or to talk a bit more about it.

[00:26:11] And so their invitation is also this entitlement to show up, to do the work to tolerate. The conversations that our partner is having.

[00:26:20] Cee The Sex Lady: Mm-hmm.

[00:26:20] Dr. Desiree: Because sometimes it's almost like if, if I'm doing what you don't like, if I'm doing something bad, it becomes this personal narrative of I'm bad.

[00:26:30] Cee The Sex Lady: Mm-hmm.

[00:26:30] Dr. Desiree: And the propensity is to, to back away as opposed to.

[00:26:34] Understand, unfiltered. See it through a relational perspective.

[00:26:38] Cee The Sex Lady: Yeah, the relational perspective. This is about both of us and, and our needs and our desires and how we can meet that for ourselves. Like going back to that internal work and how we can support that work in each other.

[00:26:51] Dr. Desiree: I. And when delivered?

[00:26:52] Well, feedback is not bad. It's information is what I like to say. It's information on how to show up, how sometimes we can receive information, how we wanna be treated, as opposed to a personal attack on you. And, and most people don't quite know. I, I think it's so sociocultural, frankly. We're so used to criticism, bootstrapping, blah, blah, blah, that we don't.

[00:27:14] Quite know how to be kind to each other and how to receive course corrections. It's all just bad, bad, bad, which means I'm bad. I'm unworthy. I'm unlovable. Yeah.

[00:27:25] Cee The Sex Lady: Yeah, it's, I see both sides of, sometimes we're not taught how to deliver those things well or effectively at all, or how to receive them well. You know, I've, I've, I've worked with couples where I've had to explain that yeah, sometimes your partner is gonna say no.

[00:27:40] Like they're gonna need to say no in order to honor their own values, their own boundaries, and we have to get comfortable with hearing no. 'cause it may have taken a lot of work for them to get comfortable with saying no. Yes. And every time they get the, oh my gosh, you never wanna do this, or you always say no, it's like, see, this is why I don't speak up.

[00:27:59] This is why I'm not honest about what I need or how I feel.

[00:28:02] Dr. Desiree: Exactly. This is how we learn it. It seems like most people will say, oh, I can't just be my childhood. And it's like, well, the roots might be in your childhood, but then we had this big old tree and the leaves and everything just reinforces this message.

[00:28:15] And so there, there is one more on the attachment quadrant. Mm-hmm. Which is people who might appear as disorganized. Yes. So disorganized attachment for, for most people, they present as what diagnostically people will say is borderline personality disorder. My trauma teacher, she would say, no one's diagnosing with borderline, because what you're looking at is an attachment dance.

[00:28:36] I. Mm. So from an attachment perspective, it is both someone who is anxious and avoided in how they present. And if you ever read the book, I Love You, don't Leave Me, or I Hate You, don't Leave Me. It's this push pull, right? I, I want to connect with you. So it looks like that anxious pursuer. I.

[00:28:52] Cee The Sex Lady: Yeah,

[00:28:53] Dr. Desiree: but also there's something really threatening about you, so we're going to pull away.

[00:28:57] We have to avoid, and it's very confusing sometimes for another partner because it's like, this is wildly inconsistent. Yeah, yeah. I don't know how to meet your needs. And so for that kind of dynamic, which sometimes comes, comes from profound trauma or maybe just a scattered household, very different parenting dynamics.

[00:29:15] It can show up from any, any situation, honestly. Yeah. But that. Emotional regulation is going to be very important for that kind of person and that self understanding so that they can find their integration and then also bring that fullness or that understanding to their partner to then teach and engage them in how they wanna be treated.

[00:29:37] Cee The Sex Lady: Yeah. And I, I love that your work, while with, with couples in particular, while centering the relationship and the needs of the relationship, it doesn't ignore the individual histories and needs or challenges that folks may be experiencing, that it's important and helpful for them to navigate and work through just for their own wellbeing.

[00:29:58] In addition to, for the relationship wellbeing. Uh, do you. Tend to encourage, like, like if you're seeing a couple, encourage them to also have individual therapists, or how do you navigate that, you know, balancing that internal work with the relational work?

[00:30:14] Dr. Desiree: Yeah. Because of how niched I am, my people either already come with their own therapists, so I mm-hmm.

[00:30:20] I'm an adjunct or a secondary. Mm-hmm. Or they really, sh one person usually has a therapist and I sometimes will encourage both people too. Mm-hmm. Because the couple space is not the time to handle. Big things that really do need and require that individual attention. So yeah, we, we name it, we voice it, we give deference to it and how it shows up to the dynamic.

[00:30:43] Mm. Right. And how we can support and understand each other. But if you have history of trauma, if you have history of sexual abuse, there's some things that you just get to have a private safe landing to be in, and it's not in front of your partner who's also learning and unlearning with you.

[00:31:01] Cee The Sex Lady: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:31:02] So there's some more freedom to, honestly, to get it wrong kind of in a, in an individual space and, and to learn some skills that help you show up better in the couple space, because it is hard to focus on the individual. It's, it's, you know, things or needs in that couple setting. And that's not necessarily the purpose of the, the couples therapy anyway.

[00:31:24] Dr. Desiree: Absolutely. And frankly, like not every partner is, even though we've learned the skills, not every partner. Is yet committed or bought in to putting down their sword and shield. Mm-hmm. They say they are, but it's kind of like, it's a little bit testy, so I don't wanna put someone in a super vulnerable position if their partner is also not there.

[00:31:43] They have to be in step to do the work or else. Where just reenacting trauma. Whereas in an individual therapy, they have someone ideally, right, fingers crossed, right person who's non pathologizing, who's not biased, who's not gonna make a big huff or reaction when you've said what you needed to say.

[00:32:03] They're going to hold you with silk and gloves so that you can actually finally not hold on or fawn or freeze in the way that your survival mechanisms have conditioned you to.

[00:32:16] Cee The Sex Lady: Yeah. Yeah. And I, I think another part of that balancing actor or dance that happens is something else that is really important to you is honoring the intersections that people exist in honoring, you know, how their identities intersect to create, you know, the fullness of their, of their identity, of their experiences.

[00:32:37] I know some of your focus areas that. You mentioned even on your website or that we mentioned in your bio that you really focus on is that those intersections of, you know, faith, you know, religion and spirituality as well as race and culture. Mm-hmm. Uh, can you speak a little bit to one, why it's important to honor intersectionality and the work that you do?

[00:32:56] With, with your clients?

[00:32:58] Dr. Desiree: Absolutely. I think a, as a black woman who lives in America, it's something that is never removed from me. They have the debate like, do you identify as a woman or a black person? And my answer is always, it depends. Depends on who I'm talking to, you know? And so that is a point of intersectionality, but also I'm very.

[00:33:17] Some I'm, excuse me. I'm very much someone who understands that sometimes religious values and morays impact sexuality. They impact partner selection. And sometimes our religious holds come from systems of supremacy as well, and systems of oppression. Mm-hmm. And so that is not only what people learn, it becomes part of their identity, just a part of their development.

[00:33:41] Mm. And it interferes when they want to live in ways that is different from that or something in their life has changed and it's like, okay, this role, this identity didn't shift with my life. And a good example of that virginity. So I have, I have, it's, it's actually quite common. I'll see people who are virgins because that is what their religion will tell them.

[00:34:04] And then they get married and they're not happy with the sex. Not only are they not happy with sex, they're not happy with their body, with their partner, et cetera. Mm-hmm. And that's because there's been no further development or teaching about the shift.

[00:34:16] Cee The Sex Lady: Yeah.

[00:34:17] Dr. Desiree: Right now, and, and also from a ma from this is for a cis het relationship as well.

[00:34:22] Mm-hmm. There's no preparation for men on how to be men and partners. It's just you're the head of the household now. Yeah. Um, so we just don't prepare people well when we. Only rely on tenants that really ideally should guide people's morals, their values, their belief system.

[00:34:39] Cee The Sex Lady: Mm-hmm.

[00:34:40] Dr. Desiree: So my work with that is really inviting people to start to become personal and intentional about their belief system.

[00:34:47] Cee The Sex Lady: Mm-hmm.

[00:34:47] Dr. Desiree: Within their value system or their faith system. Without the judgments or the criticisms or the shoulds, like how do you personalize your relationship as opposed to subjugate yourself to fit in with the rules of this religion?

[00:35:01] Cee The Sex Lady: Yeah. Yeah. And it's, it's, I call it the magic switch, everyone, it's, it is essentially taught that you say, I do the magic switch flips, and you know, everything there is to know, of course about being a sp being a spouse, being a sexual person.

[00:35:16] It's just. You know, all this information is just apparently downloaded into your brain and body. That true? Mm-hmm. And when that doesn't happen, there is disappointment, there is frustration, there is confusion, there is sadness, there is grief. And it can be really difficult for people to navigate that of what I have been told and what I have been promised is not my reality.

[00:35:39] And so then it's, does that mean I've been lied to, or am I just not doing it right? Quote unquote, like, you know, if I was better, if I was doing better, then I would be experiencing all these great and wonderful things. So it still goes back to there's something bad or wrong about me, or maybe bad or wrong about my partner.

[00:35:56] Yeah, people

[00:35:57] Dr. Desiree: mostly internalize those messages. Though, right? Like, I'm doing something wrong. What's what's wrong with me? Um, and also we decenter ourselves and we focus on somebody else's pleasure. So even in that process, uh, we never have people who, who come up with their own sexual template. Mm-hmm.

[00:36:15] Because again, the focus is not. How do I enjoy, be mindful. It's more so how do I procreate or how do I keep this other person happy? So that's why a part of me is like, I'm not concerned about your beliefs, et cetera. I'm concerned about are we operating from a punitive perspective? Are we operating from this deferential perspective?

[00:36:36] That's not the way you want. Mm-hmm. The relationship to be, or do we actually get to peel back the layers of shoulds and, and this also goes for a racial perspective. Mm-hmm. Everybody has. Some sort of racial story about how they should be.

[00:36:49] Cee The Sex Lady: Mm-hmm.

[00:36:50] Dr. Desiree: Respectability, politics, et cetera. But again, they are more rules and judgements and punitive measures.

[00:36:57] Hmm. Which needed to happen, right. For certain points in times they needed to happen for, for our ancestors, their protective mechanisms to be safe, right? To live

[00:37:08] Cee The Sex Lady: those survival needs. Yeah.

[00:37:10] Dr. Desiree: Yeah. So we thoroughly understand that that was required at one point in time. Mm-hmm. And as we continue to evolve, have our rights have a bit more depth and understanding, we also get to evolve ourselves to take up.

[00:37:24] More space that our ancestors were not allowed to do.

[00:37:28] Cee The Sex Lady: Yeah. And that can be so hard for folks to wrap their mind around when, you know, the way a lot of these things are passed down is orally or implicitly. Some, some things are said directly and explicitly, but some things are more so implied. But you still know that it's an unspoken rule and these things are ingrained in you.

[00:37:47] You've seen it play out in generations after generation of your family, and it's like. Why, who am I to switch it up and, and change it up and do something different. And I always tell folks, listen, if it's working for you and you're happy and you're living the life and, and having the relationship that you've always dreamed of, I'm not here to pry any of your beliefs or values out of your hands.

[00:38:10] That is not my job. I'm not my room. They,

[00:38:11] Dr. Desiree: they wouldn't even be in front of you though.

[00:38:13] Cee The Sex Lady: Exactly. And I'm like, but if by chance you were here because something about this is not working. Let's just go with that. Let's explore that and, and, and see is it possible to live and function a little differently?

[00:38:30] Worst case scenario, you go back to what you know, period. Best case scenario, you create a new pattern. You start a new tradition, so to speak, within your family and generations from now. Healthy communication and emotional intimacy are the norm.

[00:38:47] Dr. Desiree: Yeah, and honestly, whenever I do workshops, this year seems to be the workshops on spirituality and, and, and liberation work for me.

[00:38:55] Mm-hmm. But that's a selling point, right? Epigenetics, we think about the science. Of how literally our body is, our blood, our DNA has changed based on the situations that generations have had to endure. And so my invitation for folks is that whether or not you have birthed or materially have generated another person, or maybe you're someone in the community, we get to be the positive change.

[00:39:21] Yeah. But we actually, we actually have to embody it. We. Actually have to work with our nervous system to get to that thinking and feeling place on purpose. Yeah. Or else, again, it's a reenactment of this, this stress and disconnection.

[00:39:36] Cee The Sex Lady: Yeah. And you know, and I even tell people it's okay to find that annoying, to find it annoying that it's like, you know what?

[00:39:43] I gotta be the one to do the work and create the change. And I'm like, yes, blah, blah, blah. I know that's how it feels sometimes you can roll your eyes about it. You can stop your feet about it. And the way, the same way you're saying, I wish somebody had done this three generations ago. Three generations from now, somebody will be glad that you did.

[00:40:05] That's it.

[00:40:06] Dr. Desiree: And honestly, that's another tool is, is speaking in the affirmative. And sometimes people think affirmations or gratitude are silly or they're just kind of like whatever is that gonna do. It changes your perspective, it changes your brain chemistry. It does something with motivation. And so for example, every year it's like, I don't wanna be one of God's strongest soldier.

[00:40:28] Cee The Sex Lady: I don't wanna do that. Freak me off that list. Right? And so

[00:40:32] Dr. Desiree: that, that's one way to look at it. And it, it's funny, it's true, but I'm also just kinda like, oh, what does it look like? At least this is my personal journey. I'm like, what does it look like to just walk. As if I'm one of God's favorites. And even that verbiage, I had to be like, oh, who do you think you are To say that it's, it's something as small as that.

[00:40:49] Yeah, we're thinking that I'm one of God's favorites, but that changes how I walk, how I talk, how I engage life. Mm-hmm. And the same thing happens from a sexual attachment perspective, because if you've been told that you're not good enough, you're too fat, you're you. Stink. You've gained weight. If you've been told these things maybe from a well-meaning space, maybe from an insensitive space.

[00:41:10] Mm-hmm. We really do have to reframe the messaging, the, we call it the intrapsychic messages. What do you say to yourself about yourself? Mm-hmm. And differentiate that sometimes those messages came from someplace else and like Yeah. Phonograph. If people can remember those, you just keep replaying it.

[00:41:29] Cee The Sex Lady: We gotta take the needle off at some point.

[00:41:31] I've, I've asked clients sometimes when you hear these thoughts about yourself that are unhelpful, that are negative, that are discouraging, whose voice do you hear them in? Mm-hmm. Sometimes people are hearing them in their own voice. Sometimes it's a parent, it's a neighbor, another relative, a teacher, a stranger, you know?

[00:41:49] But it's over time, it starts to feel like. It's your own thought. Mm-hmm. It's your own belief. Yeah. And the more we can kind of separate that, if this is a thought about I have about myself, can I have a different thought? Do I? Do I have to stick with this one? And yeah, that reframing can be so helpful and so powerful.

[00:42:09] You know, just the belief that you can have healthy, thriving relationships. You can have the sexual pleasure that you want and desire, and yes, it might take some work, it may take some effort, it may not happen overnight. There is no magic switch and none of that changes the fact that this is all possible for you.

[00:42:27] Yeah,

[00:42:27] Dr. Desiree: and here's the thing. This is what I love about the trauma work. Mm-hmm. I also wanna know. Where did they learn that? Where in their life experience did they learn? And that message becomes cemented. Right? I, I can probably tell you from any negative experience, I can be like, yep, I learned that I broke my arm, or I got a, a really bad talking to, and so the rule became encoded.

[00:42:51] I'm not gonna do that again.

[00:42:53] Cee The Sex Lady: Mm-hmm.

[00:42:53] Dr. Desiree: So we get to go back to the root and then where in these dynamics, interpersonal, sexual, whatever, does it feel like that initial. Wounding or learning because people don't really know how to believe the reframe. Sometimes if the wounding is so old and repetitious because it's, it's just normal.

[00:43:13] They don't know how to get out of it or any other way.

[00:43:15] Cee The Sex Lady: Yeah. It feels like fact at this point

[00:43:17] Dr. Desiree: and And it is fact because they're like, experiences have then shown them over and over. So even that capacity is one that we're building. Just looking the perspective shift, you have to look for the differences.

[00:43:30] Cee The Sex Lady: Mm-hmm.

[00:43:31] Dr. Desiree: If you didn't acknowledge it, and if you didn't acknowledge it, how are you now the, the adult version of yourself who's nurturing those wounds?

[00:43:39] Cee The Sex Lady: Yeah. And you know, I, like you were saying before, kind of leaning into even the science of it all. You know, I, like you said, we, we've talked a lot or there's a lot of conversations about how trauma and things like that impact our bodies, how they change our DNA, how it, how it shapes our brain or changes our brain.

[00:43:56] And that can feel really discouraging for some people. And what I like to remind them is if you can learn one thing. You can learn a different thing. Anything that is learned can be unlearned. All throughout elementary school, maybe until about sixth grade, I was told that zero was the smallest number I.

[00:44:14] It didn't get any smaller than that. Zero is where it starts and and ends. And then they introduced negative numbers, and then a little while later they introduced imaginary numbers and irrational numbers. And then they started talking about. Throwing letters in there. Letters

[00:44:32] Dr. Desiree: in there. Right.

[00:44:32] Cee The Sex Lady: And now we're talking about shapes.

[00:44:34] And I'm like, what in the world do shapes have to do with math? And I'm like, if, if I had held on to what I was told in the third grade, the zero is as small as it gets. Mm-hmm. And never get to those advanced, you know, math and. Now granted, I tapped out of advanced math pretty early. I just, I'm not a math girl, but the principle is we're learning new things all the time.

[00:44:56] We're rewriting what we think we know and what we believe to be fact all the time. Who is to say that that can't happen for the, the beliefs or the stories you hold about yourself in relationships as well?

[00:45:09] Dr. Desiree: We are the same in that you are spitting straight facts. We need to frame that for people because folks think that there's just some rule book typically based on their, like their, their own cultural lens.

[00:45:21] Mm-hmm. And I like to say when two people come together, two cultures come together.

[00:45:25] Cee The Sex Lady: Yeah.

[00:45:25] Dr. Desiree: Right. That everybody's different. And so what you're saying is true, but people don't think about the escalation or the elevation. Mm-hmm. Even when they've done their own self work, it's like, but I've done all this work.

[00:45:37] Yeah. What happened? And it's like, yeah, yeah. You did that work and there's always gonna be levels. Let's release that. This is the end of it. Yeah. And really stand into the fact that we get to keep learning and each experience teaches us about ourselves and our needs in a way that maybe we were not taught to do earlier on.

[00:45:55] Cee The Sex Lady: Yeah, and, and in some ways that we would've never, some lessons we only learn in that experience. Without that experience, we don't have access to that lesson.

[00:46:05] Dr. Desiree: Mm-hmm. A healthy relationship building is actually very risky to a lot of people because of the vulnerability It. Requires and also the growth that it requests, the healthy relationships it, it invites you to actually look at yourself.

[00:46:20] And also sometimes relationships mirror our, our stuff, our sugar, honey iced tea. Because you have someone else, you have to, if it's just you in the world, you do what you want to do.

[00:46:29] Cee The Sex Lady: Absolutely. Yes.

[00:46:31] Dr. Desiree: Yeah, yeah. But somebody else might reflect our sensitivity, our entitlement. It might reflect our resentment if they're always asking and we violate our own consent.

[00:46:42] By just being like, deferential, whatever you want. So, uh, my invitation is to embrace the process, know that there's ups and downs, but if there is this common goal of connection, desire, friendship, safety, uh, whatever it is per the couple or per the person that compliments each other, be in service to that dynamic as opposed to what it should quote unquote be based on your auntie or your grandma, that that wasn't.

[00:47:11] What it was.

[00:47:12] Cee The Sex Lady: Yeah. Beautifully said. Beautifully said, Dr. Desiree, this conversation has been incredible. I've learned a lot. I hope our listeners have as well. Is there anything that maybe we haven't addressed just yet, or that you really just wanna drive home for our listeners? What else do you want folks to kind of take away from this conversation?

[00:47:34] Dr. Desiree: Hmm. The biggest thing I would invite people to take away is really continuing to deepen who you are, your definition of self, and challenging, where did this come from? Right? Is it because someone always told you that you were good looking? Is it because people always told you you should, should not do things?

[00:47:54] And what do you want deep down in your gut? What is your desire? What do you need to peel back or unpack to get to the root of why it is not happening, and also what are the themes in your relationships that you might want to evaluate without criticism, without judgment, just noticing,

[00:48:14] Cee The Sex Lady: right? Yeah. Yeah. I love that.

[00:48:17] And that, you know, we like to end every episode with what we call a personal practice. Some may call it therapy homework, you know. Maybe so, maybe, but it's really a way for folks to some actionable steps or some, some ways to practically apply what folks have heard or or learned throughout this episode.

[00:48:38] Ways to kind of build on this conversation in their own lives or relationships. Is there anything you would recommend as a personal practice? You know, we've talked about attachment, how it shows up in relationships, how it shows up in, in sex and, and. How we can honor, you know, the intersectionality of our identities in this framework.

[00:48:58] Is there anything you would recommend that folks could use as a personal practice? Oh, if you would

[00:49:04] Dr. Desiree: like. Go and take one of the attachment quizzes online. Mm-hmm. They're free. Mm-hmm. They're free. And see what your attachment style is, but also just sit with what does that mean based on the conversation we had and the tolerance.

[00:49:18] Right? Number one. Number two, I would invite you to have a daily practice of self-compassion and self gratitude. Notice where you are not very kind to yourself.

[00:49:29] Cee The Sex Lady: Mm-hmm.

[00:49:30] Dr. Desiree: Just check in with what that is. So with gratitude, like, okay, I'm understanding now when I yell and get upset, it's because I, I was not really heard.

[00:49:38] Cee The Sex Lady: Mm-hmm.

[00:49:39] Dr. Desiree: Okay. And if you like to journal a daily gratitude journal, make it as topical as you want to. If it's about your relationship with your parent, if it's about your body, just start to write things out. It's better than thinking about it, in my opinion, because it's concrete. You can see it. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:49:57] And so once we start to gather a bit more of your pattern, your dynamic, you get to choose from your wisest, most compassionate place. Hmm. What kind of a life do you want? And so that's also the last question. What kind of life are you wanting and what do you need to do differently in order to get there without judgment or criticism?

[00:50:19] Yes,

[00:50:19] Cee The Sex Lady: without judgment or criticism. What kind of life do you want? Yeah. Thank you so much. I, I think those are great starting points. You know, reflecting or learning what your attachment style might be, reflecting on what that means, practicing some compassion for yourself, some gratitude for your life as it is.

[00:50:36] Reflecting on what kind of life do you want, what changes are required to get there with an emphasis on not judging or criticizing yourself. Mm-hmm.

[00:50:47] Dr. Desiree: Yeah. And making sure, one more. Making sure that your relational space feels safe enough to show up in that vulnerable self. So once you start to bring that self forward, not everyone's going to be.

[00:50:58] Nurturing or catering to that. So you also get to be responsible to say, I'm going to bring my most erotic, vulnerable, gentle, nurturing, or dominant. Dominant, right. Whatever it is. Yeah. Self to you, because I know you can hold and handle that. So really being intentional about the energy we bring.

[00:51:18] Cee The Sex Lady: Yes. Thank you so much, Dr.

[00:51:20] Desiree. This was amazing. Now, if someone is listening and they're saying, you know what? Thank you for the personal practice. I'm gonna do those things. I'm all about it. And if I want a professional, you know, to kind of support me in this journey and if maybe I want that professional to be Dr. Desiree, how can folks connect with you or work with you?

[00:51:41] Do you have any events or things available that folks can connect with you or things coming up? Absolutely

[00:51:48] Dr. Desiree: no. Thank you for asking to work with me clinically. It, my website is my name, desiree n robinson.com. If you'd like to bring me to your facility to speak, my professional website for consulting is it's dr desiree.com.

[00:52:06] And so for the rest of this year, I know in October I'll be at the a a P conference speaking on spirituality and ancestor work clinically and in. November. If you are someone who's a bariatric person or has a bariatric body, I will be at the Bariatric Society Retreat, speaking about body image and liberation and, and sexual self image.

[00:52:29] So I'm, I'm always pleased to speak about that for changing bodies as well.

[00:52:33] Cee The Sex Lady: Love that. Thank you so much, and we'll be sure to include the links to Dr. Desiree's, uh, websites in the description so that you can access them easily. Please feel free to connect with her if something in this episode resonated with you.

[00:52:48] If you learned something new, if you. We're exposed to something. If you have more questions, feel free to reach out to us. Again, you can email, ask, see at see the sex lady.com. That will be in the description as well. Thank you so much, Dr. Desiree, for joining us. We'll have to do this again sometime.

[00:53:05] Dr. Desiree: Yes.

[00:53:06] Thank you for your amazing platform. Thank you.

[00:53:09] Cee The Sex Lady: Thank you for tuning in to From The Heart Side Out Hosted by See the Sex Lady, produced by Christine Johnson of Pure Pod Vibes and Music by Rico, the artist. If you enjoyed this episode or learned something new, make sure to subscribe, rate and review on your platform of choice, and don't forget to share with a friend so they can learn something too.

[00:53:36] I'd love to hear your thoughts about this episode. Please send any comments or questions to podcast at see the sex lady.com. That's podcast at see. EE the sex lady.com. Until next time, keep loving living and leading from the heart side out.